This thread pertains to DotA Allstars v6.35b, where denying creeps provided 0 experience and 0 gold to enemy heroes. v6.36 addresses the issue with ~50% experience to enemy heroes upon denying.
The problem is that the act of denying is too powerful, and it is exploited as the primary means to win games. I'm just going to outline the argument in one place, then propose solutions (removing denying altogether is not one of them).
(翻譯者語 : 以下是反補支持者的論點和作者針對這些論點的反駁) Denying adds skill - OK, maybe. There is 'skill' in walking in circles and right-clicking at the proper time to score a last hit. This same skill applies to a+clicking your own creeps. It's the last-hitting skill.
反補需要技術 - 好吧, 或許. 四處繞圈, 在適當的時間按下右鍵來補最後一下是種"技術".這和在適當的時間按 A 攻擊自己的小兵應用了相同的技巧. 這是打最後一下的技巧
Denying is integral to DotA - I seem to remember getting Hexed whenever I tried to attack a friendly unit in past versions. There are counters to denying - The counter to denying is to deny yourself. That's a short list.
Version 6.35 saw a global armor buff to melee heroes. Obviously, melee heroes are lacking in the game for some reason. That reason is denying. Denying prevents the melee from getting past the crucial first 5 levels, in addition to being easily harassed by range (especially with orbed range bypassing creep aggro). Many of these heroes are balanced to suffer early but dominate late. This would be a good model, except that starting armor and stat growths do not address being out-denied (it addresses being harassed), as preventing experience fundamentally breaks the power curves of these heroes.
The problem is that buffing melee heroes is the wrong solution. The problem isn't melee heroes vs ranged heroes or heroes on an individual basis. The problem is that ranged heroes can deny melee heroes into next week and back, giving them no money or experience, so there is essentially no 'midgame' for the melee hero. Denying is simply the best strategy short of outright killing the enemy hero and if your hero can't deny, it has to be paired with a hero who can.
There are plenty of things in the game that heroes can excel at. Things like movement (Anti-Mage), escaping (Weaver), disabling (Bane Elemental), traps (Techies), chain nukes (Zeus), but the front and most important thing for a hero to accel at is denying if you are trying to win the game.
The top tier hereos are prized for their denial abilities. Lich is ranged with a free deny in Dark Ritual and supreme harassment. Silencer is used with Glaives + Stats to put his 600 range and large damage to its best use: last hitting and denying. Silencer might as well have two blank skills.
What do you counter the Lich's harassment with? A STR melee tank with lots of HP regen? I'm sorry, that is an unviable counter because of denying. Perhaps a Broodmother that camps under a web with Wards to counter enemy wards? Again, unviable, as you will be denied, and when you poke your head out to counter-deny, you will be nuked.
I hope these examples make the problem clear. The heroes were not initially designed with the first seven levels being all about denies. Now, it seems with Silencer nerf, Lich nerf, melee hero buff, 'fixing' attack animations that weren't broke to begin with, and tightening the variance of hero's base damage, adding additional neutral creep spots, that the heroes are being revamped with the initial deny stage of the game in mind.
Thinking of suggesting a new hero? Might I suggest making a ranged hero that accels at denying? How about an aura that automatically kills your own creeps if they drop below 100 hp? Even though it doesn't make much sense, the game mechanics of denying make it an extremely powerful skill. By the way, congrats, you just made a top tier hero.
I mean, where is the Earthshaker + Tiny + Tree chain stun combos or the mass Assassin team? It's because the deny decifit at the beginning of the game is too big a hurdle for them to overcome, as a team must begin with three ranged lane controllers no matter what, not heroes with synergy or counter-abilities or any heroes that are anything less than excellent lane controllers.
After playing the game with full denying in affect on both sides, I honestly cannot fathom anyone enjoying this aspect of the game, or at least admitting it's anything but harmful to the health of the game's vision.
While there will always be a worst hero on a given side at any given time, that criterion should not be blanketed across half the hero choices by being solely based on deny potential. It is not balanceable on an individual basis because merely buffing starting armor or STR growth isn't going to help in the war of denials. Instead, you'll eventually end up with STR heroes with big initial stats but bad growth that can charge the Lich down as their "counter" to denying.
Eh. I'll never truly agree with the micro argument for deny. Ladder requires micro, and in comparison DotA micro is laughable. In ladder games, there's not a ton to do at the start of the game, either.
My beef is that denying undermines the balance of the game. There's a recommendation in the Item Suggestion forum not to include experience-tampering bonuses (like bonus experience). However, this is exactly what denying does; it tampers with experience gain, which (as evidenced by denying) is fundamental to winning games.
If without denying, Lich harasses N'aix out of the lane and camps the enemy's ranged creep, this is fine. It's correct to harass the enemy out of the lane. It's the way the game should be.
However, there's plenty of other situations that removing denying will effect. Say there's two ranged against two assassin heroes, like Bounty Hunter and Phantom Lancer. Without denying, the ranged need to move forward to harass the enemy heroes. This can draw creep aggro. Also, there is the danger that the PL and BH will go invis and backstab + double nuke you. But why would you do this when you can sit at your 600 range and deny? Which in turn forces the assassins to move forward and deny, which exposes them to harassment?
The point is that heroes were not designed with denying being capable of robbing them of early game experience. Their deny-happy hero versus your deny-unhappy hero leaves you levels behind as well as gold. Soon enough, they can run you down with Treads and an ult and the deficit is so high that the game is pretty much over. There is just one hero in my mind that has an anti-denying build: Lucifer the Doombringer - who gets a guranteed creep kill most waves and is able to harass an enemy higher level than him with LVL? Death. If denying is truly to stay as is, there would a lot more hero abilities that address denying and level deficits than there currently are.
Did your opponent beat you via skill? It's possible your opponent had more skill, but he was greatly aided by his hero acceling at the game's best mechanic. Now with nerf to Lich Nova range and nerf to Silencer and buff to all melee, it seems that the developers are trying to revamp the heroes to cope with the deny-deciding early game. This is wrong. It's deny that needs balancing, not the heroes that accel at it or don't.
There's a collectible card game Magic: The Gathering with five 'colors', and for a long time the color blue had the best cards. The biggest reason was that drawing extra cards in that game is extremely powerful (cards are the most basic resource to win games with), and for years and years the developers didn't tone down blue's ability to draw cards. Finally, they learned why their game was heavily favored to blue, and correctly nerfed card drawing (instead of buffing the other colors like they were doing).
(翻譯者語 : 作者用一個卡片游戲打比方, 不翻譯了 -__-) The new card drawers were strictly worse and made drawing cards more difficult and especially more dangerous. Players complained. They complained loudly. The new cards were bad. What they didn't realize is that it made the game better by correctly leveling the playing field and adding a calculated risk to a very powerful, often game-winning effect.
(翻譯者語 : 作者用一個卡片游戲打比方, 不翻譯了 -__-)
To me, old-school blue card drawing in Magic is what denying has become in DotA. It undermines a basic resource in the game, experience and gold, and gives more of it to you than your opponent. There is little risk involved in denying. Games are decided in the first few minutes because of denying. Heroes are universally powerful because of denying. Heroes are universally weak because of denying.
To top it off, it's not even fun. It's more of a chore.
總結, 這甚至不是娛樂. 更像在做家事(翻譯者語 : 因為反補真的很無趣)
转载请注明出处
I don't know how I could make it any clearer.
我不知道我如何可以將它說得更清楚了.
If there was a triple EXP rune or some absurdly powerful rune, and the game morphed into the most important thing being camping for that rune, players would scream to nerf the rune, not all the heroes's abilities to scout and acquire the rune.
Everyone who still thinks denying belongs as is needs to realize the fact that when you screw with the originally envisioned experience system, it undermines the game and, simply, becomes the game.
Here are a few solutions I came up with that could be persued by the developers:
這有一些我想到的解決方案可能可以說服地圖開發者 :
Damage Advantage (from Fault) - When attacking your own creeps, you suffer a damage penalty (50%, 75%, 90%, some percentage). This gives the advantage to your opponent if you are attempting to deny and he is attempting to last hit. Denying still exists and is every bit as powerful as it used to be, it is simply more difficult to execute against an opponent trying to prevent you from denying.
Item - Add an early game item that seriously punishes denying (on both sides), perhaps a ward that adds double creep experience should any hero deny in some radius. If you feel your hero will be out-denied, invest in this to level the playing field. If your opponent didn't plan to deny in the first place and planned to push and harass or switches lanes, you wasted a bit of money.
Gold Penalty - Balance denying by incurring a cost to it, such as a penalty of -20 gold. In this way, the cost of denying your opponent of levels equates to less gold for yourself.
Give Gold - Keep the denying of experience, but remove the denying of gold. When you deny, the enemy hero is awarded creep gold anyway. Denying now gives you a level advantage but at the cost of the enemy hero acruing more gold. At a balanced rate, you must decide if spells make the enemy powerful or items do, and formulate a denying plan accordingly.
給錢 - 反補不給對手經驗但給錢, 你壓制對手等級但對方會獲得金錢補償.
I feel that Give Experience is the best to begin with. A hero's experience should be a product of how long they can manage to stay in their lane (or kill heroes or farm neutral creeps). The only way to deny the opponent experience is to kill them or force them out of the lane through harassment or a telegraphed gank. I feel this is the original vision of the game in the first place, as evidenced by Broodmother's Web and the amount of restorative items in the game designed to keep you in the lane (as well as the lack of 'anti-deny' items in the game or experience boosters).
